“JUST BE YOURSELF, DEAR” An Interview with Shopify’s Doug Tetzner
If you have never heard of Shopify, you may be missing out on a pretty awesome career opportunity—and not just because Shopify employees have access to office perks such as a yoga studio, an arcade and catered lunches five days a week..
Based in Ottawa, Ontario, Shopify provides commerce solutions to anyone looking to sell online, in store and everywhere in between. Today, Shopify powers more than 120,000 stores around the world. Since opening its doors in 2004, Shopify has become somewhat renowned for its non-traditional approach to recruitment and interviewing, focusing much more on a person’s soft skills—their story and passion—rather than just the technical skills that they possess.
Career Options leapt at the chance to speak with Doug Tetzner, Shopify’s Director of Talent Acquisition, to learn more about this unconventional approach to hiring and what advice he has for those on the job hunt—especially if they want to work at Shopify.
Career Options (CO): What inspired your non-traditional approach to recruiting and hiring?
Doug Tetzner (DT): A lot of companies when it comes to recruiting will fall into this trap of “Well, let’s just find people who have done it before.” So it becomes a search for a “been there, done that” candidate. Whereas we much prefer to … find people who are great at what they do and are passionate about what they do, get to know them, and bring them in and have them grow within our environment.
What we’re really trying to do is find high-quality people who are fully engaged in what they do. It’s more about getting to know them versus a typical QA of “tell me a time where you were challenged.” Interviewing can be a very stiff and uncomfortable process in a lot of places because it’s really about asking questions and looking for the right answers, whereas with us it’s about getting to know the people.
CO: What are some of the key soft skills you look for as part of your role in talent acquisition for Shopify?
DT: Number one is authenticity. Shopify is a very real place. We look to hire people that can be themselves. It sounds like advice from someone’s mother: “Oh, just be yourself, dear!” It’s also easier said than done. We look for people who are comfortable with themselves and are a certain way and can be that way. They don’t present a mask or a kind of persona that they think we want to see.
Number two is…we could find someone who has great skills and an awesome background, but if we think they’re going to be an [expletive], we just won’t hire them. At work, you need to be able to get along with people. And a lot of what is great about a company is when people are working well with people they work with.
CO: Do you think soft skills are more important than technical or “hard” skills? Would you be willing to take the risk on someone who may be less technically-inclined and less qualified for the job on paper, but have a lot more potential in the personality department?
DT: The hard skills and soft skills are equally important… It comes down to people who have been fully engaged in what they do. You could interview two different people that have both worked at McDonald’s but just had very different experiences there. One would know exactly how the place worked, and what they did, and be able to get into great detail about it and have a conversation about it, and the other who maybe didn’t really care about being there wouldn’t be able to answer any questions about it because they, in fact, weren’t there. If people can come into our environment and be fully engaged…it’s what we look for.
CO: In some cases, you’ve ask candidates to describe a typical day off in their life, show you a funny link, or demonstrate their thick skin or sense of humour in an application. Why is this information important to finding the right candidate?
DT: There [are] a couple reasons for it. The first is just so we can get to know them a bit, versus just “Here is my cover letter and here is my CV.” When someone shares the link to the funny thing they have seen on the Internet or describe their weekend, you get a better understanding of them.
The second reason is that there [are] quite a few people who apply for jobs where it’s just about volume—they don’t actually read job postings or put much time and attention into their application. So they will not actually see the part about linking to the funniest thing or, quite frankly, read the part where it says “Make your cover letter out to this person.” They’re just so used to “I’m going to apply for 25 jobs today, crank them out and copy and paste my CV and cover letter.” So we’ll put some interesting things in the job postings just to see who’s actually reading them. Now that trick will be ruined once this article comes out.
We had [one job posting] where we put in the middle of the text, “Please make your cover letter out to Dear Mario and Luigi,” and about 40% of applications just didn’t. It was “To whom it may concern,” or “Dear hiring manager.” I’m convinced a lot of people just don’t read [the job postings]. They just see the job title, see it as a lottery and just apply. The people who do the best in the job search are the ones who can do a bit of research and write a customized cover letter. It goes a long way. Human beings are actually reading this stuff. Contrary to popular belief, we’re not just doing keyword searches.
CO: To play into your process a bit, how would you describe a typical day off in your life?
DT: A day off in my life? I’ve got a couple of kids. I’m married. A lot of our weekends are hanging out with the kids, taking them to activities and doing things around the house. It’s kind of all consuming and it’s awesome.
CO: Sounds like a full-time job on its own!
DT: There’s always grass to cut or there’s always things to be done… Even as you asked me to describe it, I’m like, “That doesn’t sound very exciting.” I’d like to go skydiving!
CO: You’re not just looking for people who have exciting weekend plans are you?
DT: No! No not at all. Asking about their typical weekend is just to see how their writing skills are because you’re asking them to write something that isn’t their standard cover letter and you get to know them a little bit more. We don’t read those things and go “Oh that’s dumb, that’s boring.”
CO: What are some of the questions you like to hear from candidates in an interview?
DT: The only questions that I want to be asked are questions that the candidate honestly wants the answer to. Do a bunch of research on the company and as you’re doing that research, things will naturally come up and you wonder, “Oh how does that work?”or “I’m curious about this.” Ask those things versus, “Oh I’ve heard it’s really good to ask this question, so that’s why I’m going to ask it.”
I feel that recruiting and interviewing is broken in a lot of places because it’s become this standardized question and answer thing. Candidates come in, with rehearsed answers to questions, companies come into it with standardized questions and it’s this odd interaction. It’s unlike any other human interaction you would ever have. What we prefer to do is have a conversation. So whatever questions come up in the conversation that you’re genuinely curious about, ask those. But don’t ask things just to be seen as asking questions.
CO: What’s the craziest or most outrageous thing that a candidate has ever done to get your attention?
DT: There’s a developer here who came over from France, rented an Airbnb, got a 613 phone number, then applied. And in this awesome cover letter, he was basically saying, “I came over from France and I either want to work for Shopify or another company in Toronto that I’m going to go see, but Shopify is my first choice.” But to actually come here and then apply, I was like, “Holy smokes. Talk about effort.” And we hired him, and he’s awesome.
CO: Lastly, if you could create a recipe to create the overall perfect Shopify candidate, what would that recipe look like?
DT: I’d say: 1 part fully engaged and caring about the things they’ve done up to this point. There’s nothing better than someone who is just into what they do—whatever that is. 1 part being themselves—people who can have a conversation and just be themselves is always great! Lastly, 1 part constantly learning.
CO: Awesome. Is there anything else you’d like to add?
DT: In a job search, research the company you want to work for and then go after them in a very targeted way. You’d be better off [applying] for three companies and spending a lot of time on them, versus applying for 30. It’s not a lottery. People read these applications, so you’d be better off doing a good job with them.
Second is just show up without an agenda and be ready for a conversation. Be in the moment and being there for the conversation goes an absolutely long way, versus having things you want to get across because you think they need to know those things, and when they ask a question you just veer off. Just be in the moment and have a conversation.for more info, check out avant career
Based in Ottawa, Ontario, Shopify provides commerce solutions to anyone looking to sell online, in store and everywhere in between. Today, Shopify powers more than 120,000 stores around the world. Since opening its doors in 2004, Shopify has become somewhat renowned for its non-traditional approach to recruitment and interviewing, focusing much more on a person’s soft skills—their story and passion—rather than just the technical skills that they possess.
Career Options leapt at the chance to speak with Doug Tetzner, Shopify’s Director of Talent Acquisition, to learn more about this unconventional approach to hiring and what advice he has for those on the job hunt—especially if they want to work at Shopify.
Career Options (CO): What inspired your non-traditional approach to recruiting and hiring?
Doug Tetzner (DT): A lot of companies when it comes to recruiting will fall into this trap of “Well, let’s just find people who have done it before.” So it becomes a search for a “been there, done that” candidate. Whereas we much prefer to … find people who are great at what they do and are passionate about what they do, get to know them, and bring them in and have them grow within our environment.
What we’re really trying to do is find high-quality people who are fully engaged in what they do. It’s more about getting to know them versus a typical QA of “tell me a time where you were challenged.” Interviewing can be a very stiff and uncomfortable process in a lot of places because it’s really about asking questions and looking for the right answers, whereas with us it’s about getting to know the people.
CO: What are some of the key soft skills you look for as part of your role in talent acquisition for Shopify?
DT: Number one is authenticity. Shopify is a very real place. We look to hire people that can be themselves. It sounds like advice from someone’s mother: “Oh, just be yourself, dear!” It’s also easier said than done. We look for people who are comfortable with themselves and are a certain way and can be that way. They don’t present a mask or a kind of persona that they think we want to see.
Number two is…we could find someone who has great skills and an awesome background, but if we think they’re going to be an [expletive], we just won’t hire them. At work, you need to be able to get along with people. And a lot of what is great about a company is when people are working well with people they work with.
CO: Do you think soft skills are more important than technical or “hard” skills? Would you be willing to take the risk on someone who may be less technically-inclined and less qualified for the job on paper, but have a lot more potential in the personality department?
DT: The hard skills and soft skills are equally important… It comes down to people who have been fully engaged in what they do. You could interview two different people that have both worked at McDonald’s but just had very different experiences there. One would know exactly how the place worked, and what they did, and be able to get into great detail about it and have a conversation about it, and the other who maybe didn’t really care about being there wouldn’t be able to answer any questions about it because they, in fact, weren’t there. If people can come into our environment and be fully engaged…it’s what we look for.
CO: In some cases, you’ve ask candidates to describe a typical day off in their life, show you a funny link, or demonstrate their thick skin or sense of humour in an application. Why is this information important to finding the right candidate?
DT: There [are] a couple reasons for it. The first is just so we can get to know them a bit, versus just “Here is my cover letter and here is my CV.” When someone shares the link to the funny thing they have seen on the Internet or describe their weekend, you get a better understanding of them.
The second reason is that there [are] quite a few people who apply for jobs where it’s just about volume—they don’t actually read job postings or put much time and attention into their application. So they will not actually see the part about linking to the funniest thing or, quite frankly, read the part where it says “Make your cover letter out to this person.” They’re just so used to “I’m going to apply for 25 jobs today, crank them out and copy and paste my CV and cover letter.” So we’ll put some interesting things in the job postings just to see who’s actually reading them. Now that trick will be ruined once this article comes out.
We had [one job posting] where we put in the middle of the text, “Please make your cover letter out to Dear Mario and Luigi,” and about 40% of applications just didn’t. It was “To whom it may concern,” or “Dear hiring manager.” I’m convinced a lot of people just don’t read [the job postings]. They just see the job title, see it as a lottery and just apply. The people who do the best in the job search are the ones who can do a bit of research and write a customized cover letter. It goes a long way. Human beings are actually reading this stuff. Contrary to popular belief, we’re not just doing keyword searches.
CO: To play into your process a bit, how would you describe a typical day off in your life?
DT: A day off in my life? I’ve got a couple of kids. I’m married. A lot of our weekends are hanging out with the kids, taking them to activities and doing things around the house. It’s kind of all consuming and it’s awesome.
CO: Sounds like a full-time job on its own!
DT: There’s always grass to cut or there’s always things to be done… Even as you asked me to describe it, I’m like, “That doesn’t sound very exciting.” I’d like to go skydiving!
CO: You’re not just looking for people who have exciting weekend plans are you?
DT: No! No not at all. Asking about their typical weekend is just to see how their writing skills are because you’re asking them to write something that isn’t their standard cover letter and you get to know them a little bit more. We don’t read those things and go “Oh that’s dumb, that’s boring.”
CO: What are some of the questions you like to hear from candidates in an interview?
DT: The only questions that I want to be asked are questions that the candidate honestly wants the answer to. Do a bunch of research on the company and as you’re doing that research, things will naturally come up and you wonder, “Oh how does that work?”or “I’m curious about this.” Ask those things versus, “Oh I’ve heard it’s really good to ask this question, so that’s why I’m going to ask it.”
I feel that recruiting and interviewing is broken in a lot of places because it’s become this standardized question and answer thing. Candidates come in, with rehearsed answers to questions, companies come into it with standardized questions and it’s this odd interaction. It’s unlike any other human interaction you would ever have. What we prefer to do is have a conversation. So whatever questions come up in the conversation that you’re genuinely curious about, ask those. But don’t ask things just to be seen as asking questions.
CO: What’s the craziest or most outrageous thing that a candidate has ever done to get your attention?
DT: There’s a developer here who came over from France, rented an Airbnb, got a 613 phone number, then applied. And in this awesome cover letter, he was basically saying, “I came over from France and I either want to work for Shopify or another company in Toronto that I’m going to go see, but Shopify is my first choice.” But to actually come here and then apply, I was like, “Holy smokes. Talk about effort.” And we hired him, and he’s awesome.
CO: Lastly, if you could create a recipe to create the overall perfect Shopify candidate, what would that recipe look like?
DT: I’d say: 1 part fully engaged and caring about the things they’ve done up to this point. There’s nothing better than someone who is just into what they do—whatever that is. 1 part being themselves—people who can have a conversation and just be themselves is always great! Lastly, 1 part constantly learning.
CO: Awesome. Is there anything else you’d like to add?
DT: In a job search, research the company you want to work for and then go after them in a very targeted way. You’d be better off [applying] for three companies and spending a lot of time on them, versus applying for 30. It’s not a lottery. People read these applications, so you’d be better off doing a good job with them.
Second is just show up without an agenda and be ready for a conversation. Be in the moment and being there for the conversation goes an absolutely long way, versus having things you want to get across because you think they need to know those things, and when they ask a question you just veer off. Just be in the moment and have a conversation.for more info, check out avant career
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